Overtaking behaviour?

[midlife_crisis]

I have had a nice drive down to Devon from London today, but experienced some strange behaviour on the roads, especially when I performed an overtake. I would be interested in how this could be interpreted.

Travelling on an A Road, cars were being held up by a Transit pulling a trailer, there were about 6 cars between the Transit and me. I spent some time assessing the cars ahead and there was space for me to move into, in front of the car ahead of me.

I performed a clean overtake and started planning the next. I moved out to take a look, and stayed out, there wasn’t enough room for me to pass all the traffic ahead, but I stayed out for a while, hoping to indicate that it was clear and I would like to make progress. While I was out, the car behind started to move up into my space. Seeing this I moved back in and saw him shaking his head. He added a flash of the light and to my shame I gave him a hand signal that he and his passenger replied too.

Further down the road, things opened up and I made a clean overtake and passed all of the traffic. The guy behind wasn’t exactly hot on my heels, but also made an overtake and made his presence felt behind me again, once he had caught up. I made no acknowledgement of his presence.

He then followed me at the next junction on to a B road, and then followed me at my next turn into an single track road, sounding his horn a few times (not aggressively, but more I am here) as he turned in to the road. We were heading off the beaten track and I got the distinct impression that he was following me.

After a very short time he had dropped back and I didn’t see him again. The whole situation seemed very odd. I wouldn’t consider myself an aggressive driver; my other half was in the passenger seat (RoSPA Gold biker) and is honest, and blunt enough to say what she thinks. She put it down to the car driver taking offence at being overtaken (by the old baldy man in the old man's car), I can understand that for the several minutes following the overtake, but potentially going 5-6 miles out of your way over it, I just don’t understand it.

Is this in line with behaviour others see when overtaking? Should I be looking for a lesson in all of this (which I am)?

[GJD]

Some thoughts with no concrete conclusions...

Maybe he took offence at being overtaken, but from your post it sounds like he started to behave unfavourably after you were already ahead of him, when you moved out but didn't immediately overtake the next vehicle(s). I'm very concious when I'm offside considering an overtake that people around me may have absolutely no idea what I'm doing and so may conclude that I don't know what I'm doing. Why he started to move into your space I don't know - perhaps he felt that you needed encouraging into the overtake? If he was moving up, as you moved back in he may have felt you were cutting into the space in front of him? All speculation on my part, but one thing occurs - did you have time to put on a signal and wait a few seconds for him to realise you were coming back in? Of course, that could also give him time to steal more of your space.

I haven't yet had anyone behind start to take my space like you describe but I'm aware of the possibility when there is someone behind. Only moving part-way out rather than all the way offside might prevent them from doing so, but it compromises your position to start the overtake. Keeping further back from the vehicle in front gives you more space (which equals more time) to sort the situation out if it happens, but means you need more space to complete the overtake.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Should I be looking for a lesson in all of this

Yes.

Remember the motto "unobtrusive progress". When you pulled into the gap, did you need to show brake lights? Was there any apparent ill-will from the first overtake? If so, may have been as well to wait for a little while before initiating the next. A little acknowledgement in the mirror sometimes helps too.

.. and obviously the hand signal, but you already mentioned that.

Now forget about that particular incident (by which I mean, don't worry about it any more), and just bear it in mind next time, without necessarily allowing yourself to be put off overtaking in the first place.

Sorry, all the above sounds a bit pompous, but I'm sure it only reflects your own thoughts.

[ROG]

Before you overtook the car in front of you, was the gap between that car and the next one at least 5 seconds - if not then it was not a sufficient safe return gap.

[MGF]

I think Rog may have hit the nail on the head regarding unfavourable reactions to using a 'gap' in the traffic to execute an overtake. If the car behind needs to ease off to create a safe following distance to the overtaking vehicle is it really an appropriate use of the gap?

[midlife_crisis]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback.

GJD, I think you are right in that he had no idea what I was doing. I’m not sure if I showed my indicator to come back in. I was concerned that I could get hung out in no-man’s-land. I will practice moving out part-way, as moving out fully came up as an issue on my MDC,so I have been working on it. I guess it’s time to moderate positioning.

Nick, cheers, I’ll consider that a slap on the wrist. There would have been a touch of brakes; I’m not yet that practiced at slipping it in without a dab, so the girlfriend tells me!

ROG; no there wasn’t a 5 second gap, but I did consider there to be enough room for it to be on, and worth doing.

Cheers guys, it might be worth staying off the road between Devon and London on Monday as I calve my way home.

[TripleS]

....it might be worth staying off the road between Devon and London on Monday as I calve my way home.

Aye, but you might run into livestock problems if you do that. I wouldn't want to hit a pregnant cow.

OK, I'll go away again shortly.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[ROG]

ROG; no there wasn’t a 5 second gap, but I did consider there to be enough room for it to be on, and worth doing.

Without that return gap then someone is going to be compromising at least one safety space.

[vonhosen]

ROG; no there wasn’t a 5 second gap, but I did consider there to be enough room for it to be on, and worth doing.

Without that return gap then someone is going to be compromising at least one safety space.

What is the minimum safe return gap ?
Different people have different views on that, there isn't one universal view.

[Gareth]

What is the minimum safe return gap ?
Different people have different views on that, there isn't one universal view.

If 2 seconds is a safe following distance then a minimum safe return gap is going to be 4 seconds plus space for the inserting vehicle ... and ROG's suggestion of 5 seconds seems to fit well with this.

[vonhosen]

What is the minimum safe return gap ?
Different people have different views on that, there isn't one universal view.

If 2 seconds is a safe following distance then a minimum safe return gap is going to be 4 seconds plus space for the inserting vehicle ... and ROG's suggestion of 5 seconds seems to fit well with this.

But is being closer than 2 secs automatically dangerous ?
I don't personally believe so. That's akin to saying doing 35 in a 30 is always dangerous IMHO.

[GJD]

What is the minimum safe return gap ?
Different people have different views on that, there isn't one universal view.

5 seconds seems a bit extreme to me. At 50mph that's 112 metres, or 25.2 Ford Focuses. I'm sure I've performed and witnessed overtakes into return gaps of less than that without feeling alarmed. I'm not sure how I judge it any more than deciding whether it looks right. I'm not conciously using two times the 2-second rule plus a bit.

The unobtrusiveness ideal interests me with overtaking too. Mr C-W mentioned it in the context of braking, and I'd agree with trying to avoid presenting an overtakee with my brake lights. I'd aim to get braking (if any was necessary) done while still offside. But more generally I'm not sure overtaking can be unobtrusive. It's what I was alluding to in my previous post about being very self-concious if I'm staying offside assessing the situation. Sometimes, I move out, immediately see it's clear, and slide neatly past. That might just about be unobtrusive. But more often I find an opportunity to go out and have a look comes up before an opportunity to pass. As soon as I move out and stay there assessing for a bit - maybe passing after a short while, maybe moving back in because it turns out the overtake's not on - I feel any chance of unobstrusiveness has gone. I know why I'm doing it, but I'm aware it's unusual behaviour and I imagine anyone around who sees it might regard me as suprising and potentially unpredictable, and therefore be very aware of my presence. Different levels of "unobtrusive" perhaps...

[Gareth]

But is being closer than 2 secs automatically dangerous ?

I doubt being closer than 2 seconds is automatically dangerous but it is less safe and requires enhanced forward observation by the driver, (cf. contact position prior to overtaking). To overtake into a smaller gap requires consideration of this and how best to mitigate it. An alert driver could accept a smaller forward gap with the aim of smoothly increasing the gap while initially giving the driver behind a full 2 seconds of gap.

To my mind slotting closely in front of another vehicle is inherently unsafe as it requires action of the other driver.

Compromising the safety of the overtaken driver by immediately making their following gap less than 2 seconds is plain rude, and it's no wonder overtaken drivers sometimes get pissed off.

[vonhosen]

But is being closer than 2 secs automatically dangerous ?

I doubt being closer than 2 seconds is automatically dangerous but it is less safe and requires enhanced forward observation by the driver, (cf. contact position prior to overtaking). To overtake into a smaller gap requires consideration of this and how best to mitigate it. An alert driver could accept a smaller forward gap with the aim of smoothly increasing the gap while initially giving the driver behind a full 2 seconds of gap.

To my mind slotting closely in front of another vehicle is inherently unsafe as it requires action of the other driver.

Compromising the safety of the overtaken driver by immediately making their following gap less than 2 seconds is plain rude, and it's no wonder overtaken drivers sometimes get pissed off.

But can it be acceptably safe ?
Because if it can then the minimum 5 secs is already out of the window.

In my experience there are very few people who will insist on a minimum 2 secs gap in front of them all of the time, so again you are unlikely to upset an overtaken vehicle 'simply on the basis' that there is less than a 2 secs gap between them & you. That's not to say that they might state that you've left them an inadequate gap, but that, IMHO, is more likely to say more about them than anything else & that their real objection is deeper routed in something else. (ie they'll be happy to compromise a shorter than 2 secs gap when it suits them & not where it suits others, rather than not happy with less than 2 secs per se).

[ROG]

I suggested 5 seconds because that would usually mean no-one would need to adjust their minimum safe following distance if some-one came into the gap

The OP said that following driver seemed to get a bit narked - was this because they were forced to adjust ?