POLICE ACCIDENTS

[superskib]

In yesterday's Guardian, in Simon Jenkins piece, it was stated that last year more people were killed by speeding police cars than were killed by gunshots. Isn't about time the police put their house in order?
Then there are the 1000 civilians killed in police custody in the past 30 years.
Not to mention those killed and assaulted at demos and the like.
what on earth is going on?

[Standard Dave]

I agree time the police stopped going to any incidents or arresting anyone, if they all stayed in the station and just gave advice by telephone to members of the public to sort out their own problems we could save a lot of money on the home office budget.

[jont]

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Accidents- ... Facts.aspx
Over 4000 people are killed every year through accidents in the home. Maybe homes should be fitted with CCTV to make sure these accidents can be prevented. Houses should be single story only (after all, 1000 of those deaths are caused by people falling down stairs http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/790609.stm)

Or perhaps we should go the other way and examine whether our gun laws are unnecessarily restrictive given their good safety record?

[Porker]

what on earth is going on?

Journalists seek headlines shocker.

P.

[kfae8959]

Or perhaps we should go the other way and examine whether our gun laws are unnecessarily restrictive given their good safety record?

Many police forces in the US have hit on the idea of not training their officers to drive safely in operational circumstances and issuing them with sidearms as a matter of course. As a result, their response is invariably safe, swift, proportionate, and peaceful. Hang on - I just need to check my facts...

David

[michael769]

In yesterday's Guardian, in Simon Jenkins piece, it was stated that last year more people were killed by speeding police cars than were killed by gunshots. Isn't about time the police put their house in order?
Then there are the 1000 civilians killed in police custody in the past 30 years.
Not to mention those killed and assaulted at demos and the like.
what on earth is going on?

Take a look at the record for a US state with a similar population to England and Wales. Take a look at how many the local police depts have killed (and I mean actually killed as opposed to those committing suicide or dying of natural causes which I suspect account for the majority of E&Ws death in custody) . Then look at the E&W numbers again.

[GJD]

what on earth is going on?

Two things I'd guess:

1) Life is not a zero-risk activity, and
2) Not many people are killed by gunshots.

[superskib]

Amazing isn't it, whenever anyone raises legitimate concerns about our uniformed secretariat, aka the police, the first response is facetiousness, or worst sarcasm, then irrelevant comparisons with other countries and/or police forces. Of course direct denial mode is also a favourite strategy.

In the same article Jenkins mentions that 30 years ago Lincs Police had 1000 officers of whom 250 were not engaged in 'front line' policing -ie visible to the public. Currently the figure is 800 'back up people within the force's 1200 officers. From a ratio of 3-1 down to 1-1.5. There is something very rotten at the heart of the police generally, ask the families of Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson (verdict today??).

Of course no one in their right minds would be without a good police service; when will we get one?

Just before the partition of India Mahatma Gandhi was asked "What do you think of British Civilsation"? He answered "Sounds like a good idea, when will they try it"

[MGF]

It appears to me that Simon Jenkins has used carefully selected statistics to support his argument that the Police should not be immune from the impending public sector cuts. It might be a bit hasty to extrapolate to much from this limited data. Some context might help.

All deaths where the Police have been involved, sometimes quite tenuously, are now reported to the IPCC. (That in itself should be somewhat reassuring to those who want to live in a 'civilised' society).

In its report on such deaths in the financial year 2008/2009 it states the following.*

"Road traffic fatalities

Demographics

In 2008/09, there were 33 police-related RTIs, which resulted in the deaths of 40 individuals. Thirty-four of those who died were male and six were female, the average age at the time of death was 32 years. Eleven of the people who died were under 21 years of age; of these seven were below 18. Two people

Nature of death

Twenty-two people died during or shortly after a police pursuit. Of these:

• nineteen individuals were the driver of, or a passenger in, the pursued vehicle and died when their vehicle crashed either into street furniture, a tree, or against private premises. Three of the individuals who died were the rider of either a moped or a motorcycle

• three people died after their vehicle was hit by a car being pursued by the police; one of these fatalities involved a motorcyclist. Six of the 40 fatalities involved a police vehicle that was responding to an emergency call. Three fatalities occurred when the police car collided with another vehicle; three fatalities involved a police vehicle colliding with a pedestrian. Twelve fatalities occurred during ‘other’ types of police traffic activity, for example, officers travelling routinely from one location to another.

Of these:

• eight deaths occurred after a vehicle appeared to speed away from a police car.
Two of these deaths involved a motorcycle driver; one death was that of a third party whose car was hit by the vehicle allegedly driving off from the police

• two deaths occurred after a pedestrian was hit by
a police vehicle

• two deaths involved police vehicles colliding with
other vehicles.

Deaths in or following police custody

Since 2004/05, the number of deaths in or following police custody has decreased annually, with a fall of seven deaths in the most recent financial year (from 22 in 2007/08 to 15 in 2008/09). In 2008/09, there were two apparent suicides in police custody compared to none in 2007/08, two in 2006/07, one in 2005/06 and two
in 2004/05. There has also been a decrease over the reported years in the number of fatal cases where people have been taken ill, or been injured, in police custody then taken into hospital. In 2004/05 there were 26 such occurrences, 22 in 2005/06, 22 in 2006/07, 20 in 2007/08, through to 12 in 2008/09."


*Pages 4 to 7 of the report dated 16th July

From this data I would conclude,

The Police rarely kill anyone directly whether by shooting or otherwise,

The Police appear to be getting better at caring for people in custody,

Perhaps too many people are dying in RTIs that involve the Police.

Not all our concerns can necessarily be addressed by the Police alone. How much risk the Police should take with public safety and in what circumstances, in their pursuit of law enforcement is an issue for society as a whole.

[jcochrane]

Amazing isn't it, whenever anyone raises legitimate concerns about our uniformed secretariat, aka the police, the first response is facetiousness, or worst sarcasm, then irrelevant comparisons with other countries and/or police forces. Of course direct denial mode is also a favourite strategy.

In the same article Jenkins mentions that 30 years ago Lincs Police had 1000 officers of whom 250 were not engaged in 'front line' policing -ie visible to the public. Currently the figure is 800 'back up people within the force's 1200 officers. From a ratio of 3-1 down to 1-1.5. There is something very rotten at the heart of the police generally, ask the families of Jean Charles de Menezes and Ian Tomlinson (verdict today??).

Of course no one in their right minds would be without a good police service; when will we get one?

Maybe you should raise your concerns on some other more appropriate forum?

[Gareth]

Amazing isn't it, whenever anyone raises legitimate concerns about our uniformed secretariat, aka the police, the first response is facetiousness, or worst sarcasm, then irrelevant comparisons with other countries and/or police forces. Of course direct denial mode is also a favourite strategy.

By the way you worded the opening post, and again with you subsequent words, you are asking us to blindly accept your view as this being something that is unreasonable, unacceptable, and downright terrible.

Your method of delivery discouraged me from responding to your initial comments.

You refer to an article printed in a newspaper and invite us to accept the assertions made there as fact. What is the breakdown of figures for the deaths attributed to police cars? Were all these deaths the result of police cars going faster than the prevailing speed limits? Were the deaths actually directly caused by the police cars, or only indirectly caused?

I looked for the article in the Guardian's website and think this is it - Simon Jenkins claimed that "It did not mention that speeding police cars now kill twice as many members of the public as die from gun offences" but did not provide a source for his figures.

I've tried to find that missing information. For instance, the number of gun related deaths each year in the UK appears to be consistently close to 50. Information about police driving related deaths can be found in an IPCC report (08-09) where it says, for the year being reported upon, there were 40 road traffic fatalities with police involvement. Read page 4 of the report for further details, but suffice it to say that more than half were by the actions of those being pursued.

[GJD]

Amazing isn't it, whenever anyone raises legitimate concerns

Why do you think it's a legitimate concern? It seems a bizarre non-sequitur of a concern to me. You said:

In yesterday's Guardian, in Simon Jenkins piece, it was stated that last year more people were killed by speeding police cars than were killed by gunshots. Isn't about time the police put their house in order?

I think everyone here would like the risk of dying in a road traffic incident involving the police to very well managed. However, I think you might be the only person here who thinks that comparison with the number of deaths by gunshot is a useful metric to assess whether that's happening.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Among the things Mr Jenkins attacks in his diatribe is the Police operation to contain and arrest Raoul Moat earlier this month. So on the one hand he compares the number of people being killed by Police cars to those being killed by gunshot, and on the other he deplores over-use of Police resources to contain people likely to kill others by gunshot. Perhaps his article could be summarised in the words "every citizen has the right to die by gunshot wound".

Facetious, yes. When he writes something with a serious base, perhaps he'll be taken more seriously.

[7db]

Maybe you should raise your concerns on some other more appropriate forum?

Yeah come over to 5ive-0. We'll be waiting for you...

[MGF]

Not really appropriate if you seek intelligent and informed discussion though....