Breaking the speed limit whilst overtaking

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Car training.

Postby dombooth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:05 pm


fungus wrote:Your reply indicates you are still missing the point. If a driver is "unable/incompetent to decide what speed etc is safe" imposing a 30 limit instead of 40 does not make their driving safe. That is the very thinking we have been arguing against. Circumstances on any section of road vary from moment to moment requiring reassessment and variation of speed. [Not forgetting position and gear.] There is not one set speed that if not exceeded will be safe for a stretch of road at all times in all conditions.

Better to train, re-educate etc.

In answer to your question..If a driver is genuinely "unable/incompetent" to learn then why have they been allowed to have a driver's licence. For such drivers why stop at 30 why not 5 or 10 or even better 0. An arbitrary speed limit is no answer. Such a person should not be driving.

If drivers are able/competent to learn then they need training to become safer.


While it doesn't make their driving safe, it makes anything they happen to hit less affected. Put it this way, would you rather hit something at 40 or 30? (Not at all isn't an option. ;) ).

The amount of times I've asked my dad to 'slow down', 'get out of the car infront's exhaust' etc is uncountable! I really hate having to get in the car with him driving sometimes..

Dom[/quote]

So the problem here is that your father is either unable to asses a safe speed/following distance etc. or can, but deliberately chooses to over ride his possibly accurate assessment, (it won't happen to me etc).[/quote]

It's this attitude that most people have got. He also will never use high beam. :(
I hate being thrown around the car when he's going round bends with one hand on the wheel as fast as he can.

Dom
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Postby dombooth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:06 pm


jcochrane wrote:In the context of my post I was referring the cost for the training, but you probably knew that anyway.

I've only paid for a tiny amount of the training I've received over the years. Virtually all my training has been for free except for the cost of fuel. I can usually get out 2 or 3 times a month, with someone, with the intention of getting training input on my driving. No cost for the training, just fuel and a cup of coffee, sometimes a cake as well. :D


As was I.. :lol:

I will be doing ROSPA, and attending ADUK driving days, and IAM Skills Days in the near future. But unless I win the lottery or my insurance changed It'll all have to wait until September.

Dom
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Postby dombooth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:06 pm


ScoobyChris wrote:
dombooth wrote:Just to relate this to my situation, when in the car with dad and he's driving about 6 foot off their exhaust doing 60 I ask him "If he stopped now, could you?" His answer every time is "Yes.".


And he's not alone - lots of people tailgate on a daily basis and never have a problem so they have an underlying belief that their driving is safe (reinforced by miles between accidents). I don't think lecturing is the answer though because that's unlikely to change the belief (as you found out :D)...

Chris


Exactly but what is the answer?

Dom
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Postby waremark » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:14 pm


dombooth wrote:Just to relate this to my situation, when in the car with dad and he's driving about 6 foot off their exhaust doing 60 I ask him "If he stopped now, could you?" His answer every time is "Yes.".

Dom

Your Dad is obviously a tough nut to crack, but he is so very wrong that it should be possible to convince him. Cannot you get him to try a reaction tester, and then show him how far he would travel before he started to brake? Then find some vid illustrating braking distances? Even take him to a skid pan event?

We all knew you did well to get a First, but you did even better to have decided to drive well in the first place when you were set such a bad example. I think a great number of drivers copy their parents' bad habits. Well done Dom.

But on this question of whether public education road safety video is being used to best advantage, you are in a small minority here. IMO the objective of such video should be to persuade people to look for potential hazards and to be ready to stop for them - regardless of the speed limit.

Dom, I fully understand and sympathise with you about the cost of non-essential miles - but to the list of things you would like to do I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).
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Postby dombooth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:29 pm


waremark wrote:
dombooth wrote:Just to relate this to my situation, when in the car with dad and he's driving about 6 foot off their exhaust doing 60 I ask him "If he stopped now, could you?" His answer every time is "Yes.".

Dom

Your Dad is obviously a tough nut to crack, but he is so very wrong that it should be possible to convince him. Cannot you get him to try a reaction tester, and then show him how far he would travel before he started to brake? Then find some vid illustrating braking distances? Even take him to a skid pan event?

We all knew you did well to get a First, but you did even better to have decided to drive well in the first place when you were set such a bad example. I think a great number of drivers copy their parents' bad habits. Well done Dom.

But on this question of whether public education road safety video is being used to best advantage, you are in a small minority here. IMO the objective of such video should be to persuade people to look for potential hazards and to be ready to stop for them - regardless of the speed limit.

Dom, I fully understand and sympathise with you about the cost of non-essential miles - but to the list of things you would like to do I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).


Thank you for the offer but the next one is on my 19th Birthday and I don't think my girlfriend would be very happy with me going driving for the day without her. :lol: I will consider the next day though. :) Thanks.

Next time the group go on a skidpan evening I'll attempt to get him along. :)

Yes it should be to get them to look for the hazards and respond to them quickly but for someone that doesn't seem able to do that then slowing them down is the next best thing surely?

(As SWMBO is counting down until she's going to unplug my computer I'm off!)

Dom
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Postby jcochrane » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:34 pm


waremark wrote:
dombooth wrote:Just to relate this to my situation, when in the car with dad and he's driving about 6 foot off their exhaust doing 60 I ask him "If he stopped now, could you?" His answer every time is "Yes.".

Dom

Your Dad is obviously a tough nut to crack, but he is so very wrong that it should be possible to convince him. Cannot you get him to try a reaction tester, and then show him how far he would travel before he started to brake? Then find some vid illustrating braking distances? Even take him to a skid pan event?

We all knew you did well to get a First, but you did even better to have decided to drive well in the first place when you were set such a bad example. I think a great number of drivers copy their parents' bad habits. Well done Dom.

But on this question of whether public education road safety video is being used to best advantage, you are in a small minority here. IMO the objective of such video should be to persuade people to look for potential hazards and to be ready to stop for them - regardless of the speed limit.

Dom, I fully understand and sympathise with you about the cost of non-essential miles - but to the list of things you would like to do I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).


And I will match that sum to help towards your petrol costs.

You could bring the girlfriend along. I'm sure she would find it very interesting and not what she might expect.
Last edited by jcochrane on Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ScoobyChris » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:37 pm


dombooth wrote:Exactly but what is the answer?


I think we may have come full circle and it's easy to say what's not the right answer, but much harder to come up with a workable solution :D

I think any campaign needs to be able to relate to the target audience and should seek to educate rather than use slogans like "it's 30 for a reason" (with the focus being on the number and statistics rather than the reason). I think some of the more over-the-top hard-hitting campaigns are a bit too Hollywood too and while they are effective in the short term, I don't think they're something John Smith is still considering on his drive to work in the morning.

One of the approaches I like are the "spot the hazard" type videos, such as this one from a few years ago http://think.direct.gov.uk/drivingchallenge/ which are more engaging, more every-day and people see themselves in the driving seat.

Chris
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Postby dth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:54 pm


ScoobyChris wrote:
dombooth wrote:Exactly but what is the answer?


I think we may have come full circle and it's easy to say what's not the right answer, but much harder to come up with a workable solution :D

I think any campaign needs to be able to relate to the target audience and should seek to educate rather than use slogans like "it's 30 for a reason" (with the focus being on the number and statistics rather than the reason). I think some of the more over-the-top hard-hitting campaigns are a bit too Hollywood too and while they are effective in the short term, I don't think they're something John Smith is still considering on his drive to work in the morning.

One of the approaches I like are the "spot the hazard" type videos, such as this one from a few years ago http://think.direct.gov.uk/drivingchallenge/ which are more engaging, more every-day and people see themselves in the driving seat.

Chris


In answer to Brian's comments, I believe that the legal implications are always the priority for the normal driver who has the right attitude unless blind compliance in a specific situation can be argued in retrospect to have been foolish.

I say this because of my previous assertions that Jo(e) Driver generally takes little or no interest in their driving abilities beyond self-belief.

If it were the other way round as Brian would like it, I would be very pleased. Motoring law has to be set at such a level as to moderate the majority even though we know that there is a minority who may make just as good a job with their safety without those restrictions.

As already stated by another, it is often the so-called expert driver who thinks they know better than science etc etc and who believe that their judgement is usually better than the combined wisdom of the various authorities who deal with casualty reduction.

What do you think of these clips? You may have seen them before but there will always be the clever-dicks who will maintain that even such exercises as these are contrived and controlled in order to come to a conclusion that fits in order to pursuade drivers to a particular behaviour. In other words, they are arrogant in their ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... -rCf3ScrCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCI8G8EEsuA
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Postby TripleS » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:25 pm


waremark wrote:......I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).


Does that exceedingly generous offer extend to other eager young learners by any chance? I can wear short trousers if that's any help. :lol:

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby TripleS » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:30 pm


dombooth wrote:
waremark wrote:
dombooth wrote:Just to relate this to my situation, when in the car with dad and he's driving about 6 foot off their exhaust doing 60 I ask him "If he stopped now, could you?" His answer every time is "Yes.".

Dom

Your Dad is obviously a tough nut to crack, but he is so very wrong that it should be possible to convince him. Cannot you get him to try a reaction tester, and then show him how far he would travel before he started to brake? Then find some vid illustrating braking distances? Even take him to a skid pan event?

We all knew you did well to get a First, but you did even better to have decided to drive well in the first place when you were set such a bad example. I think a great number of drivers copy their parents' bad habits. Well done Dom.

But on this question of whether public education road safety video is being used to best advantage, you are in a small minority here. IMO the objective of such video should be to persuade people to look for potential hazards and to be ready to stop for them - regardless of the speed limit.

Dom, I fully understand and sympathise with you about the cost of non-essential miles - but to the list of things you would like to do I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).


Thank you for the offer but the next one is on my 19th Birthday......

Dom


'Tis interesting to note how one can get some very fixed ideas at quite an early age. :wink:

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby jcochrane » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:37 pm


See post by dth» Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:54 pm


On the very first viewing of the first video I was thinking I hope the overtaking car has checked that there arn't any side turnings that a vehicle could emerge from as the road looked like there could be. Then sure enough there was the side turning with the emerging car. The accident in my opinion, in real life, would have been 100% avoidable.

The second video was conducted off road but even so on the approach to a side road one should lift off the power and search for threatening vehicles. Reducing speed further if required.

In my opinion the videos could have been used to emphasise the need for better observation and planning rather than on the obvious that if you hit something at a higher speed the impact is harder causing more damage. Seemed to me like stating the obvious and missing the opportunity to introduce driving skills to avoid an accident in he first place.

As for a car overtaking approaching a side turning and with a threatening car in it, as shown in the first video, just leaves me speechless. Nothing said in the video of this stupidity.
Last edited by jcochrane on Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby TripleS » Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:40 pm


dth wrote:What do you think of these clips? You may have seen them before but there will always be the clever-dicks who will maintain that even such exercises as these are contrived and controlled in order to come to a conclusion that fits in order to pursuade drivers to a particular behaviour. In other words, they are arrogant in their ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... -rCf3ScrCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCI8G8EEsuA


Some may feel there's also a touch of arrogance in those who devise and present such videos.

Best wishes all,
Dave - possibly a 'clever-dick'!
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Postby dth » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:00 pm


jcochrane wrote:
In my opinion the videos could have been used to emphasise the need for better observation and planning rather than on the obvious that if you hit something at a higher speed the impact is harder causing more damage. Seemed to me like stating the obvious and missing the opportunity to introduce driving skills to avoid an accident in he first place.



The off-road clip's message is not the obvious that you describe :o .

The message addresses most drivers' inability to comprehend or have sufficient knowledge around the speeds they choose and what the resultant collision speeds could be.
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Postby jameslb101 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:18 pm


waremark wrote:Dom, I fully understand and sympathise with you about the cost of non-essential miles - but to the list of things you would like to do I strongly recommend adding the HPC Young Drivers Day (if you decide you can afford to get there, I will pay what they charge for room and refreshments for you - let me know).

Does this offer stretch to all active ADUKers? :wink:
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Postby brianhaddon » Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:28 pm


dth wrote:What do you think of these clips? You may have seen them before but there will always be the clever-dicks who will maintain that even such exercises as these are contrived and controlled in order to come to a conclusion that fits in order to pursuade drivers to a particular behaviour. In other words, they are arrogant in their ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... -rCf3ScrCA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCI8G8EEsuA

They are still showing the same message - slow down. Slow down to what? The message travel at 65(kph) it takes longer to stop than 60(kph). Good grief! Really? Who'd have thought? Of course it does. But that is not the problem. The problem is that drivers are not matching speed with vision.
dth wrote:The message addresses most drivers' inability to comprehend or have sufficient knowledge around the speeds they choose and what the resultant collision speeds could be.

So how does merely slowing down help? When do they do 60 instead of 65? when do they do 30 instead of 40? These videos don't tell us.

Sorry - I know people drive too fast for conditions but these videos really are too simplistic and don't, in my mind, get the right message across.

Regards
Victor M.. sorry Brian Haddon
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