Which laws are you prepared to break when driving?

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Car training.

Which of the following laws are you prepared to break?

Parking with direction of traffic except in marked parking bay
13
14%
Breaking at least one statutory speed limit
27
28%
Driving over a mini roundabout
23
24%
Stop sign (i.e. treating it as a give way)
9
9%
Going through an amber traffic light when you could safely stop
11
12%
Crossing a solid white line in an illegal manner or offsiding a keep left bollard
4
4%
Flagrantly disregarding a red light - albeit when it is safe to do so
4
4%
PCOJ - i.e. taking points for someone, getting someone to take points for you, etc
1
1%
Going the wrong way for a significant distance down a one way street, albeit in a manner you believe to be safe
2
2%
Drink Driving
1
1%
 
Total votes : 95

Postby jont » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:56 am


gannet wrote:given it was 15mph or more, I wouldn't have passed regardless of how the driver behind felt...

My speedo isn't that accurate at those sorts of speeds to be able to differentiate between 10 and 15mph.

/fwiw I had this situation on a Rospa test. I asserted that the cyclist was doing 10mph or less therefore I had use of the exemption to cross the lines. The examiner was very happy and said that with a queue of cars behind and a safe opportunity to overtake the cyclist it was the correct thing to do.
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Postby dombooth » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:26 am


brianhaddon wrote:Consider the scenario. You are driving along a sweeping bend at the road maximum speed of 50mph. There is a solid white line against you. You come upon a cyclist and slow to match its speed. You slow to 15mph. The only way to get past the cyclist safely is to go over the line. Do you pass? Behind you is a car/pickup thingy. The car, which was previously following at a reasonable distance comes close and the driver is obviously anxious to pass. The car weaves from the gutter to over the white line. Traffic towards is light with plenty of spaces to pass, albeit going over the line to do so. Do you pass? Eventually you round the bend and the centre line becomes unbroken. You pass the cyclist and accelerate back to the road maximum of 50mph (I gave a clear early signal). Car/pickup thingy then comes past a rate that is probably a tad over 60mph. Up ahead is 40mph and we both slow for the limit.

Now if I had of passed the cyclist, which I could have done quite safely, car/pickup thingyman would have probably followed and more than likely stayed behind me at the road limit of 50mph. So could I have been accused of creating a situation which caused another driver to get agitated and possibly later on take further risks?

You may wonder why I ask such a question because obviously the law would not have allowed me to pass the cyclist, and haven't we had enough threads questioning the law? But to me it relates the kind of problems drivers face everyday and quite often resolve in their own way quite safely. Yes I know the lines are there for a reason and many are resolverd in a manner that ends badly. However, the two cars in front of me passed safely.

Here is the location and direction of travel.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=de65+5bg&hl=en&ll=52.876331,-1.695156&spn=0.000104,0.054846&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=12.165846,28.081055&t=h&hnear=Foston+DE65+5BG,+United+Kingdom&z=14&layer=c&cbll=52.876363,-1.695253&panoid=uoWruHdmWZ78qBWttuAdfQ&cbp=12,118.46,,0,0

I caught up with the cyclist just after the road went into the trees.
Regards
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I would've waited until the line broke off due to it being a bend and also that the line finishes not far ahead really.

Dom
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Postby somewhatfoolish » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:19 pm


You can see far enough along that bend to safely pass the cyclist doing 15mph from a 10mph standing start. However I wouldn't, because it would not be safe to be fully offside - i.e. you would only be able to safely pass with the centreline of the road going roughly down your driveshaft - and I would want to give another yard to a cyclist going at 15.

I presume it is clear why to readers?

Had I had some time to observe this cyclist by some bizzarre circumstance and were confident he were the kind that it wold be safe to give just that much room to then I suppose I would overtake, but I can't really see how I would have had that time. A long queue of oncoming traffic, perhaps.

On an another note, bizarrely if I could actually see oncoming traffic and so knew it was coming at me at the 50mph limit, I could actually make that overtake "safely" - that is to say within space - anything I usually drive has enough power - but it would be a pretty violent maneouver and scare the bejesus out of both the cyclist and oncoming traffic, given it would be two violent swerves accompanied with tyre squeal and high engine revs. Probably even count as inconsiderate driving.

P.s. I took a quick gander at that road on google maps and that should never be a 50.
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Postby Terry Williams » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:04 pm


What would if you came across the little old lady who parks her car alongside a keep left bollard completely blocking your progress and when you point this out to her she waves her blue badge and then slowly hobbles into a shop?Do you pass on the wrong side of the bollards,assuming it's clear or wait until she returns?
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Postby somewhatfoolish » Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:22 pm


Stick the old lady in the boot
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Postby nigelc » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:00 pm


The problem with the questions is that they are black and white (like the law). Hypothetically speaking (not wanting to implicate myself here) it could be that I may go a tad over the speed limit momentarily to perform an overtake but wouldn't travel in lane 2 of the A1 at 120mph+ with left hand indicator on as I saw recently. Also there is a mini roundabout I see most days that has 2 lanes on 2 lanes off and only 1 lane around it. Most cars in lane 2 drive over the roundabout to avoid hitting those in lane 1. I would probably do the same (hypothetically speaking :P )
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein
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Postby Ancient » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:07 am


Given the visibility, the fact there is no oncoming trafic, the hazards on the left: Can anyone give me a good reason not to break the law and cross the solid centre line here?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Halfway ... 80.03,,0,0
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Postby Gareth » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:51 am


Ancient wrote:Given the visibility, the fact there is no oncoming trafic, the hazards on the left: Can anyone give me a good reason not to break the law and cross the solid centre line here?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Halfway ... 80.03,,0,0

The view from the Google camera van might be a lot better than that at eye level of a car driver. This issue in my mind would be how far you'd be out, and where you'd need to return by in order not to come into conflict with a fast on-comer such as a sports bike.

There are many instances where the amount of white paint has significantly increased over the last decade. One of my 'favourites' is heading south on the A329 towards Streatley. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the double whites start from close to the Berkshire country boundary.
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Postby somewhatfoolish » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:52 pm


Ancient wrote:Given the visibility, the fact there is no oncoming trafic, the hazards on the left: Can anyone give me a good reason not to break the law and cross the solid centre line here?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Halfway ... 80.03,,0,0


If nothing were parked outside the pub (with anyone in) AND with the hindsight that that google map has given me of nothing going to come from left/right apart from that gate which is perfectly visible, then sure, I would in theory cross those lines.

I would have to be really pressing on for a serious reason though cause it would perturb the other drivers no end!

And without said google map hindsight - nope, for I know not why they are there.

I'll tell you the solid white lines, sometimes unknown to me, I break the most at speed. They're the ones where there's a suicide lane going uphill, and I can see far enough to use it to overtake downhill, even though there is only one lane for use going downhill in theory.

Having said that most of those the white lines are such that said maneouever is in fact legal anyway.

Just in case IOM police are watching: I'm not including the two of those on the new castletown road, that would blatantly be dangerous. I'm thinking more of when I drive in Scotland.
Last edited by somewhatfoolish on Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ancient » Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:56 pm


Gareth wrote:The view from the Google camera van might be a lot better than that at eye level of a car driver. This issue in my mind would be how far you'd be out, and where you'd need to return by in order not to come into conflict with a fast on-comer such as a sports bike.

There are many instances where the amount of white paint has significantly increased over the last decade. One of my 'favourites' is heading south on the A329 towards Streatley. Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the double whites start from close to the Berkshire country boundary.

It's not unrepresentative of what you see as a car driver (which is why I chose that spot). Were I to decide that safety overrides the need to stay legal, I would start moving out by the time I passed the parked 4WD and be significantly over the line until after the telephone box, moving back left if anything appeared or otherwise approximately where the 'slippery surface' sign is placed (to open the view to the right). The view improves as you approach the bend... Now go forward to here for example http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Halfway ... ,,0,0&z=17 - the car driver's view is better than the google camera's because of that overhanging branch on the right; for a car driver the view is open and clear, a small vehicle such as a bike could be hidden by the slight left bend, >3 telegraph poles away but crossing the line would open that out earlier.

I'm finding a lot of places where solid centre lines tell me not to move to a safer position with more visibility around the corner and/or more clearance from stationary hazards such as houses, entrances etc. It does seem as if "Don't cross the centre" is replacing "No overtaking", which is unfortunate.
Last edited by Ancient on Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby somewhatfoolish » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:03 pm


Here is a random example of said double line crawler lanes I would be willing to ignore overtaking downhill.

Caveat: I only chose this location to demonstrate the principle cause I remembered the A69 has loads of these around that area; I can't actually remember if this particular one, or indeed any of the ones on the A69, are safe to cross the solid lines on without google map car hieght. Frankly, even if it is the traffic would proably ake it impossible anyway.

The ones I have used regularly are in Scotland, but would have taken me harder to find on google maps being on throught routes!
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Postby Ancient » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:14 pm


somewhatfoolish wrote:Here is a random example of said double line crawler lanes I would be willing to ignore overtaking downhill.

Caveat: I only chose this location to demonstrate the principle cause I remembered the A69 has loads of these around that area; I can't actually remember if this particular one, or indeed any of the ones on the A69, are safe to cross the solid lines on without google map car hieght. Frankly, even if it is the traffic would proably ake it impossible anyway.

The ones I have used regularly are in Scotland, but would have taken me harder to find on google maps being on throught routes!

I think that is a perfect example of why these type of solid lines are appearing. Three lane roads, with hazard lines telling you to use the centre lane to overtake if it is safe to do, are an excellent idea if every driver was an advanced driver (or could even be relied on to take a thought-through decision whilst driving). As I understand it however, these became some of the most dangerous public roads around, because of the thoughtless manner in which most people drive. Making them 'one-way overtaking' places, often in turn, means that the decision is taken out of the driver's hands. The solid lines cannot take into account the fact that at the time the picture was taken, an overtake would have been perfectly safe. Permanent inflexible rules replace sensible decision making because too many drivers were failing to make sensible decisions.
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Postby PeterE » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:04 pm


Ancient wrote:I think that is a perfect example of why these type of solid lines are appearing. Three lane roads, with hazard lines telling you to use the centre lane to overtake if it is safe to do, are an excellent idea if every driver was an advanced driver (or could even be relied on to take a thought-through decision whilst driving). As I understand it however, these became some of the most dangerous public roads around, because of the thoughtless manner in which most people drive. Making them 'one-way overtaking' places, often in turn, means that the decision is taken out of the driver's hands. The solid lines cannot take into account the fact that at the time the picture was taken, an overtake would have been perfectly safe. Permanent inflexible rules replace sensible decision making because too many drivers were failing to make sensible decisions.

Is it the case that the 2+1 layout with dotted lines on one side was abandoned because such roads actually had a high accident rate, or because official design guidelines have evolved in a "cover-your-backside" way? There are still plenty of the older style about, such as here on the A49 near Tarporley.

I have also read somewhere that the old 3-lane roads with no priority indicted were not actually anywhere near as dangerous as often supposed, but were discontinued because of a view that the authorities should not be complicit in creating ambiguous situations.

Conceptually, are they any more dangerous than allowing overtaking on a normal two-lane road with a dashed centre line?
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Postby YorkshireJumbo » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:13 pm


On several of the 3-lane roads which have been changed to 2-lane roads, people seem to make a 3rd lane when overtaking, as the road is often wide enough to support it (if not always safely)

Interestingly, when I was driving in South Africa over the Easter holidays, many of the 2-lane roads main roads there have a hard shoulder marked, and people expected slower vehicles to move over to the hard shoulder and allow them to pass. You obviously had to check the hard shoulder was clear far enough ahead to allow a safe pass - often it would disappear without warning. Once past, you "thanked" them with a flash of your hazard lights, except that they often also used them to signal they were stopping in a dangerous spot - especially minibus taxis :shock: Couldn't find any mention of all this, so I'm not sure if it is legal or just custom.

With a 120kph (~75mph) limit on both dual carriageways and 2-lane roads, it was certainly a learning experience!
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Postby PeterE » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:01 pm


YorkshireJumbo wrote:Interestingly, when I was driving in South Africa over the Easter holidays, many of the 2-lane roads main roads there have a hard shoulder marked, and people expected slower vehicles to move over to the hard shoulder and allow them to pass. You obviously had to check the hard shoulder was clear far enough ahead to allow a safe pass - often it would disappear without warning. Once past, you "thanked" them with a flash of your hazard lights, except that they often also used them to signal they were stopping in a dangerous spot - especially minibus taxis :shock: Couldn't find any mention of all this, so I'm not sure if it is legal or just custom.

A lot of the older main roads in the Republic of Ireland are like that.
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