Getting younger people interested in advanced driving.

[Astraist]

I can put furth my own example. Learning to do things the way the professionals -- as in, race drivers -- do things, was to me more cool than just laying about in the car with my fingernail doing the steering and my eye watching the text message.

[waremark]

I can put furth my own example. Learning to do things the way the professionals -- as in, race drivers -- do things, was to me more cool ......(

Which explains a lot:
1. That if the aspects of driving which most of us would like to be able to 'sell' to youngsters were related to motorsport we would have less difficulty in getting youngsters on board.
2. The very differerent perspective from which Astraist approaches advanced driving compared with those of us in the UK. Astraist, you already know this, but we try to sell as a 'Skill for Life' techniques to avoid accidents on roads with unsighted hazards where other road users do unexpected things. We find relatively little overlap with motorsport techniques which are designed to make the best progress in a different environment, and instead base our 'system' on the techniques developed for police driving. The interest which some of us have developed in car control and limit handling techniques is an extremely minor part of what we do.

[Astraist]

Many of the techniques you suggest, are related to track racing whether you acknowledge it or not. The suggestion to maintain speed through curves, avoid weight shifts, avoid locking-up brakes, being smooth and accurate -- these elements are all existant in race driving.

Driving on the track is the smoothest and more accurate sort of driving, and it also teachs about driving in traffic and use the mirrors and the visual field, and dictates that a fast corner exit speed is far more beneficial than a fast corner entry, so entering bends is done slowely. This are all good lessons for road drivers.

Combining this with other elements, from road-rallying and your police driving schools, gives the best basis for both car control (Carcraft) and road observation (Roadcraft).

[Horse]

I can put furth my own example. Learning to do things the way the professionals -- as in, race drivers -- do things, was to me more cool ......(

We find relatively little overlap with motorsport techniques which are designed to make the best progress in a different environment, and instead base our 'system' on the techniques developed for police driving.

And is police driving ideal for public use? Simply, a police driver is either going to be driving 'with traffic', or going full pelt on an emergency call - and most people will think [rightly or wrongly] they can cope quite well, or at least well enough, with everyday driving.

And remind me again, how did 'Roadcraft' get started? Weren't the basic principles developed by two racing drivers

[Horse]

Imho, the biggest barriers to people not doing it is a) they don't see the benefit and

Perhaps a new thread: "What's the 'sellable' benefits of taking further training?" needed?

Also, perhaps some clarity needed in this thread and its title, ie:

Which younger people?
How do they crash?
What are the best ways of changing their behaviour?
Is 'advanced driving' the answer?

That's presuming that the intention is to attract those drivers most likely to be crash-involved and to change that. [If 'no', what's the point?]

[quintaton]

Which explains a lot:
1. That if the aspects of driving which most of us would like to be able to 'sell' to youngsters were related to motorsport we would have less difficulty in getting youngsters on board.
2. The very differerent perspective from which Astraist approaches advanced driving compared with those of us in the UK. Astraist, you already know this, but we try to sell as a 'Skill for Life' techniques to avoid accidents on roads with unsighted hazards where other road users do unexpected things. We find relatively little overlap with motorsport techniques which are designed to make the best progress in a different environment, and instead base our 'system' on the techniques developed for police driving. The interest which some of us have developed in car control and limit handling techniques is an extremely minor part of what we do.[/quote]


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I'm absolutely with "Astraist" on this one, and without wanting to promote something which has yet to be published, I've been writing a book about very advanced driving which, apart from the index is now finished. In that book, I have a whole section aimed at younger drivers, which has never been done before, entitled "Younger drivers and the need for speed."

That section is based on my own interest in road-rallying many years ago, and my deep concern at the way some young drivers now illegally but frequently race around the quiet country-lanes near to where I live; often combined with drug-use or with passengers aboard. It's not long ago that three youngsters died in an accident over a series of blind crests, when their car left the road and hit a tree.

What I have tried to do is combine certain challenges with a bit of horse sense, and then compare the safety aspects to what happens in motor-sport, and the need for the proper equipment and safety-features.

People say they can't get young drivers interested in advanced driving; well yes they can, and let me tell you how.

You wander up to a group of young drivers having a bit of a "meet" and tell them that they're rubbish drivers. (You say this nicely or they beat you up). That gets them going, because they can do hand-brake turns and drifts and doughnuts around the car-park with the best of them. You then proceed to present them with an empty plastic-cup, and place it on the nice, shiny metallic roof of one of their cars and fill it almost full with water. You then ask them to do a three-point turn without spilling the water. You even promise to buy the ones who can do it a drink, after they've put the car to bed. (At this point you are on safe ground....they can't do it, so it doesn't cost you anything).

Of course, you then show them how it's done.

The next challenge is a hill-start with a match propped up against a rear-tyre.

Will they break it when they set off?

You've now got them interested, and you can talk about smoothness, "slow in fast out," the pitfalls of "race suspension" on the public roads etc etc.

It reminds me of that superb "Top Gear" edition, when Clarkson took a group of boy-racers to a hill-climb track, and the challenge was to beat an old man driving a 1959 Austin-Healey "bug eye" Sprite. The old guys won by a tenth of a second, and with 150bhp less....magical.

The thing to avoid is to lecture them about safety and roadcraft manuals. The Police have been doing that ever since God was a boy, and I don't recall that we took a blind bit of notice 40 years ago!!

[Horse]

horse sense

Welcome to the fan club, glad to have you along

and then compare the safety aspects to what happens in motor-sport, and the need for the proper equipment and safety-features.

'ish'

I can see what you're getting at, and with the skills challenges, but how does this transfer into safe driving?

I'm presuming that's what the aim is?

[Astraist]

I do not teach my road drivers to drive safe, nor do I teach my racers to drive fast. Both have to drive effectivelly, from which the following gains stem as by-products:
1. Safety: The best possible margin of safety with an ability to respond to anything caused by any of the parties on the arena called "road" and all while considering a certain amount of human errors.
2. Speed: Your speed will progressively increase, of course in the context of the appropriate range of speeds suitable to the enviornemnt, not too slow nor too fast.
3. Easier: After good driving habits are made natural, it becomes far easier to drive the car and control it in every situation, which also helps in evaporating driving phobias. Driving becomes comofrtable even in long drives and the amount of physical effort excerted in steering, shifting, moving the head in lane changes, etcetra, is reduced to a minimum. I have found this to be important to many youngsters.
4. More Economic: Better milleage of fuel (and other liquids such as oil), less wear on the mechanical parts of the car, less air pollution, less to no accidents of any sort that would require repairs and payements, less to no conflicts with the law and/or fines.
5. More entertaining: Things and excersies to perform while driving, targets to be accomplished, all makes the driving experience better.
6. More impressive: The accuracy, finesse, race-driver style and awareness to the depths of the wisdom of car dynamics and car control make your driving have better impact on others, which is also something youngsters care for. You simply re-program what they consider cool from an American gangsta style to a race driver style.

[quintaton]

horse sense

Welcome to the fan club, glad to have you along

[Devil's Advocate mode on]

OK, so what happens when you get a kiddo who can do all of these things?

[quote="quintaton wrote: and then compare the safety aspects to what happens in motor-sport, and the need for the proper equipment and safety-features.

'ish'

I can see what you're getting at, and with the skills challenges, but how does this transfer into safe driving?

I'm presuming that's what the aim is?[/quote]

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Well, initially it doesn't, except that it challenges their belief in their own immortality, by first of all outlining the difference between those who drive fast for a living, and those who drive fast for fun and put themselves and others at risk. If safety is the aim, (which it must be), then this represents a start, because not many young drivers appreciate the sheer violence of a car-accident at almost any speed.

The "cup of water test" is a great way to teach delicate car-control and the need for smoothness, and actually, if there is a level surface inside a vehicle, it's quite fun standing a cigarette packet (or similar) on end, and seeing if they can drive a mile without it falling over.

Above all, it breaks the ice and opens up a means of communication, because they don't see you as an old gimmer.

I spent a lot of time over the winter, showing quite a few young drivers how to cope with and what to do in the snow, because I've had a vast experience of winter driving and know a bit about it.

How many people on this forum know the differences between types of snow, or the effects of temperature on the levels of grip?

Anything which contributes to knowledge leads to an increasing level of safety by default, but it comes down to the individual to get their act together.

As to the question of finding the one in a thousand who can call your bluff, you rapidly move on to left-foot braking and clutchless gear-changes.....that sorts them out!!!!

[jont]

I spent a lot of time over the winter, showing quite a few young drivers how to cope with and what to do in the snow, because I've had a vast experience of winter driving and know a bit about it.

How many people on this forum know the differences between types of snow, or the effects of temperature on the levels of grip?

Fancy introducing yourself over in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=672&start=210
and telling us a bit about your background?

[JPJPJP]

Interesting topic

I think its about being proactive, many young drivers aren't going to seek out a local IAM / ROADA group and, I expect that if you ask them to describe the type of person that is involved in such an organisation, you aren't going to be flattered.

But, if you can get a few enthusiastic members (and, shallow as it might seem, a few swish cars) to spend some time at places where such a crowd congregates (I suggested this for our group York Raceway) with an open and engaging attitude, it might be successful in getting a couple to take up the offer of an assessment drive.

The assessment drive is an easy way to kill that initial interest dead of course but, handled correctly, it could lead to fuller engagement and another driver with safety a bit higher up their list of things that are important when driving.

[jbsportstech]

It might be just me but where I live there are alot of cars with IAM Badges driven badly and so you are hardly inspired by them. There was an old couple parked in parent and child in sainsburys and he had IAM all over his car but nothing from his poor nose in parking and drive out suggested he gained anything from his IAM course except a badge collection and lack of children. My first thoughts were can he read road markings and signs.

If the IAM or ROSPA could get Lewis or Button involved then young males may get interested but while most people who display the badges of IAM, Rospa take little away from the training than a badge and maybe a sense of superiority I can't see no it all 17-25 year old like i was at -17-19 signing up. I knew it all the at least I thought I did.

[martine]

It might be just me but where I live there are alot of cars with IAM Badges driven badly and so you are hardly inspired by them.

I see very few cars around Bristol with IAM badges but perhaps that's a measure of my poor obs!

If the IAM or ROSPA could get Lewis or Button involved then young males may get interested but while most people who display the badges of IAM, Rospa take little away from the training than a badge and maybe a sense of superiority I can't see no it all 17-25 year old like i was at -17-19 signing up. I knew it all the at least I thought I did.

Well we've got F1 champion Nigel Mansell as our president and more recently...Vicki Butler-Henderson on board:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23ONJigUVwo

What are you doing 'jb' to get more young driver's into AD?