Cutting corners...

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving. IAM, RoSPA/RoADA, High Performance Course. All associated training. Car training.

Postby stuarttunstall » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:42 pm


I am know a little confused.... When I did my IAM training for my test, I was advised that it was acceptable to "trim the bend" when safe to do so, up to about half a car's width..

Now, I have never really done this as, in my opinion, or maybe the way I was told how to drive all those years ago, it is not really safe...

Whilst watching an episode of Traffic Cops last night, one of the officers, whilst at the scene of an accident, stated that the skid marks showed the motorcyclist to be on the wrong side of the road on a bend when the accident happened, which is classed as careless driving.... I appreciate that the IAM local group stated "when safe to do so", but what would happen if you did "trim the bend", when the road in front was clear and you had good visibility, and you were followed by a Police vehicle.....

So who is correct? What are your views on this?

Stuart
Stuart Tunstall
IAM Member
stuarttunstall
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:59 am
Location: York




Postby ROG » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:14 pm


I will assume we are referring to trimming a right hand bend.......

I actually encourage this WHEN IT IS A SAFE OPTION and the driver is also comfortable with it.

I also want the driver to say they are going to do this or consider doing this BEFORE they do it - this way I know it is planned.

I would not expect the driver to do it if there was a following vehicle as encouraging them to do it may not be safe.

Would I do it or be happy for an associate to do it with a police advanced driver behind - YUP :D :D :D as I would be confident that the police driver knows what the possible risks are :)
- unless the police car behind was closing up and may be looking for an overtake in which case keeping tucked into the left would assist them
ROG (retired)
Civilian Advanced Driver
Observer - Leicester Group of Advanced Motorists
EX LGV instructor
User avatar
ROG
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:19 pm
Location: LEICESTER

Postby stuarttunstall » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:39 pm


Thank you for the quick reply..That is correct, I did mean trimming a right hand bend.. It just made me think watching the programme last nght..

It was clear that the situation in the programme, was not safe... he had an accident! :?
Stuart Tunstall
IAM Member
stuarttunstall
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 10:59 am
Location: York




Postby Still learning » Thu Nov 19, 2009 8:46 pm


Hi Stuart,

A number of years ago it was generally accepted but in recent years the official viewpoint of IAM & RoSPA have changed some what and local Groups, trainers & examiners should not be looking for it.

Due to the fact some Groups, trainers and examiners have either not kept up to date with the IAM or RoSPA Guidelines or are blatantly ignoring it, this is a minefield and you will find there are large variations on what is taught or encouraged throughout the UK.

An interesting thread here

http://www.drivertrainingtoday.co.uk/fo ... 432.0.html

Draw your own conclusions.
Remembering that as a driver or instructor, no matter how much you know or think you know, there is always more to learn!
Still learning
 
Posts: 63
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 11:29 pm
Location: Scotland

Postby JamesAllport » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:31 pm


Due to the fact some Groups, trainers and examiners have either not kept up to date with the IAM or RoSPA Guidelines or are blatantly ignoring it, this is a minefield and you will find there are large variations on what is taught or encouraged throughout the UK.


RoSPA don't encourage or condone this practice officially. The IAM line is more liberal, namely that it's not required but that if someone does it on test the examiner should assess that aspect of their driving on its merits.

In practice, I drive in exactly the same way on RoSPA re-tests and IAM observer requalification drives and special assessments (I'm sad enough to have done the SA twice). I straighten things and offside a lot, and none of the examiners have ever even mentioned it.

I think outlawing straight lining corners where safe and other "offsiding" is quite a significant dumming down of advanced driving. Personally, I enjoy taking every safe and appropriate opportunity to straighten things out, and I'd be very sad to stop.

James
Only two things matter: attitude & entry speeds.
JamesAllport
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:12 pm
Location: Chichester, West Sussex




Postby crr003 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:00 pm


Still learning wrote:Hi Stuart,

A number of years ago it was generally accepted but in recent years the official viewpoint of IAM & RoSPA have changed some what and local Groups, trainers & examiners should not be looking for it.

Due to the fact some Groups, trainers and examiners have either not kept up to date with the IAM or RoSPA Guidelines or are blatantly ignoring it, this is a minefield and you will find there are large variations on what is taught or encouraged throughout the UK.

An interesting thread here

http://www.drivertrainingtoday.co.uk/fo ... 432.0.html

Draw your own conclusions.

I recently attended an IAM Senior Observer Training day and the guidance on this topic was offsiding/straightlining was acceptable if performed safely and it wouldn't be distracting to other road users. I would have hoped that was up to date guidance.

PS - you need to register to follow that link - can you copy/paste anything relevant?
crr003
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Wirral

Postby ROG » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:29 pm


crr003 wrote:I recently attended an IAM Senior Observer Training day and the guidance on this topic was offsiding/straightlining was acceptable if performed safely and it wouldn't be distracting to other road users. I would have hoped that was up to date guidance.

DITTO to all the above - same day different venue
ROG (retired)
Civilian Advanced Driver
Observer - Leicester Group of Advanced Motorists
EX LGV instructor
User avatar
ROG
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:19 pm
Location: LEICESTER

Postby crr003 » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:59 pm


ROG wrote:
crr003 wrote:I recently attended an IAM Senior Observer Training day and the guidance on this topic was offsiding/straightlining was acceptable if performed safely and it wouldn't be distracting to other road users. I would have hoped that was up to date guidance.

DITTO to all the above - same day different venue

Maybe it's different in Scotland.
crr003
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:09 pm
Location: Wirral

Postby waremark » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:13 am


I believe that not only are there different shades of opinion about this issue in advanced driving circles, but there is a similar difference of teaching between different police driving schools. Can anyone confirm or deny?

In spite of very slightly different public statements about this between Rospa and IAM, I believe that the two organisations have very similar positions on it: that use of the other side of the road where safe, helpful, and not confusing or concerning to other road users is acceptable and even admirable, but that it should not be positively encouraged in case it ends up being badly executed.

You need to have a long view in order to be confident of not concerning an oncoming driver before it is acceptable to cross the centre line on a right bend. The judgement of how long a view is a very difficult one.
waremark
 
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:18 pm

Postby ExadiNigel » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:50 am


crr003 wrote:....I recently attended an IAM Senior Observer Training day and the guidance on this topic was offsiding/straightlining was acceptable if performed safely and it wouldn't be distracting to other road users. I would have hoped that was up to date guidance.


That ties in with what I have been hearing. The Drivertrainingtoday links to a thread on Positioning for corners. In it a chap under the name of OnBoardTraining suggests that only bad or out of date trainers include any offsiding or straightening of roundabouts in training runs.

Nigel
Ex - ADI & Fleet Trainer, RoADAR Diploma, National Standards Cycling Instructor, ex- Registered Assessor for BTEC in Driving Science, ex-Member RoADAR & IAM, Plymouth, ex - SAFED registered trainer
ExadiNigel
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 6:04 am
Location: Plymouth, NOT home of the Magic Roundabout

Postby ROG » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:52 am


adiNigel wrote: a chap under the name of OnBoardTraining suggests that only bad or out of date trainers include any offsiding or straightening of roundabouts in training runs.


What a dope - there is no must or must not
ROG (retired)
Civilian Advanced Driver
Observer - Leicester Group of Advanced Motorists
EX LGV instructor
User avatar
ROG
 
Posts: 2499
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:19 pm
Location: LEICESTER

Postby ScoobyChris » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:06 am


With observers/tutors discouraged from teaching it, how do associates gain the skills to do it on test? Certainly I've been alarmed at a couple of observers I've driven with who've done it (imvho badly) on demo drives and wonder whether it's a case of Chinese whispers and this is why the IAM/RoSPA are having to dumb it down?

Chris
ScoobyChris
 
Posts: 2307
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 9:03 am
Location: Laaaaaaaaaahndan

Postby jont » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:15 am


ScoobyChris wrote:With observers/tutors discouraged from teaching it, how do associates gain the skills to do it on test? Certainly I've been alarmed at a couple of observers I've driven with who've done it (imvho badly) on demo drives and wonder whether it's a case of Chinese whispers and this is why the IAM/RoSPA are having to dumb it down?

Almost certainly. But then one has to question how the observers themselves are being trained and whether that process is being dumbed down.
User avatar
jont
 
Posts: 2717
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:56 pm
Location: Cambridgeshire

Postby JamesAllport » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:57 am


I believe that not only are there different shades of opinion about this issue in advanced driving circles, but there is a similar difference of teaching between different police driving schools. Can anyone confirm or deny?


Mark,

There certainly are and were very different views from different police driving schools. Notoriously, a few years ago, South Wales were teaching extremely bold offside positioning on the approach to left hand bends. Most other schools took the view that their teaching crossed the fine (and grey!) line between "fishing for a view" (with the risk that all you get is a slightly earlier view of the car that hits you) and keeping a view you've already got. South Wales have now moderated their teaching quite a lot.

My sense is that, at advanced course level, most schools still expect expert use of the offside, and rightly so IMNVHO. At standard/response level some are more cautious.

The confounding factor is that, of course, as soon as you start looking at response driving with lights and sirens, the driver will be using the offside a lot for progress, but for different reasons and in a slightly different way from the approach you and I may take on a civillian drive.

Almost certainly. But then one has to question how the observers themselves are being trained and whether that process is being dumbed down.


Jon,

The root of the problem is that the observer training process is focussed on coaching not driving, so most observer trainees receive little or no further driver training. It's also fair to say that, with the average IAM associate I work with, teaching them to offside isn't the priority, so I wouldn't criticise observers for not spending hours honing their offsiding coaching. It's also less relevant within the confines of the speed limits; although I use it a lot even within the NSL. The problem comes when a real driving enthusiast comes to RoSPA or IAM, who is looking to push their standard as far as it can go. That's when pairing up associates with suitably experienced observers, rather than adopting a one size fits all approach, can really make or break an associate's experience.

There's also an important role for paid professionals to teach these finer edge (and riskier) skills.
Only two things matter: attitude & entry speeds.
JamesAllport
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:12 pm
Location: Chichester, West Sussex




Postby TripleS » Fri Nov 20, 2009 11:42 am


James - I wonder if the "(and riskier)" bit ought to have been omitted. It appears to suggest the acceptance of an increased level of risk, in which case does it not call into question the principle that safety should always be paramount?

Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS
 
Posts: 5515
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Briggswath, Whitby

Next

Return to Advanced Driving Forum (Cars)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: gannet, Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests