Straight-lining bends

[Gromit37]

GJD: It isn't your responsibility, it's theirs. I agree that we shouldn't have to pander to those who are perhaps less enlightened. But of course the other driver doesn't necessarily know or understand the reasoning for your maneuver. We do comprehensive vision scans before offsiding/straightlining... but will they be as thorough? It might be you they crash in to at the next RAB.

Organisations such as IAM and RoSPA simply do not want to spend time in court defending their position should anything go wrong. You can see why. Sooner or later, somebody who gets it wrong would stand up and say "But RoSPA and IAM said it ok to do it...", followed by a huge lawsuit and compensation claims. It's the 'blame and claim' culture we seem to have developed.

Personally. I apply both techniques when I feel it is safe and prudent to do so. But then I'm perfect, so it's ok!

[7db]

my responsibility or theirs? I'm not sure I see how it might be mine.

If you are seen taking a racing line followed by another vehicle taking a racing line then it wouldn't be unreasonable to jump to a conclusion that you might not wish to have to defend in court.

Responsibility is an odd concept. I do really believe that they better you are, the more responsible you become. I use it differently from blameworthiness, but I think if we are training ourselves up to high level of observation, planning and car control then we owe it to our fellow road-users to make it safer for everyone even when they screw-up. Obviously you're not to blame if they screw-up, but you should feel responsible for giving them the ability to do it safely if you at all can.

[GJD]

It's an interesting way of thinking, but I'm not sure I've got the zen of it yet.

How about overtaking? Unlike straight-lining, it's impossible to overtake without being in view of at least one other road-user. So should I never overtake again lest my overtakee one day imitates what they saw me do but wipes out the oncoming traffic that emerges from the hidden dip they hadn't registered?

[Gareth]

The contrast between over-taking and using 'interesting' lines highlights something or other, but I'm not sure I can enunciate it. I've never been particularly minded to tone down my driving -- aiming for safe is good enough for me.

[Gromit37]

If you are seen taking a racing line followed by another vehicle taking a racing line then it wouldn't be unreasonable to jump to a conclusion that you might not wish to have to defend in court.

Racing lines can be somewhat different to straightening a bend or offsiding. You need to put things in to a context. It is highly unlikely that straight lining a mild bend at 50mph in a 50mph zone whilst in 5th/6th gear will be construed as 'racing', nor straightening a small RAB at 20mph in a 30mph residential area. Braking harshly to the RAB, accelerating hard across it up to 50mph with a another car doing the same close behind would be different. But the line taken may be the same.

Responsibility is an odd concept. I do really believe that they better you are, the more responsible you become. I use it differently from blameworthiness, but I think if we are training ourselves up to high level of observation, planning and car control then we owe it to our fellow road-users to make it safer for everyone even when they screw-up. Obviously you're not to blame if they screw-up, but you should feel responsible for giving them the ability to do it safely if you at all can.

How far does that responsibility extend? To a specific distance or time period? A situation I come across a lot is pulling out onto the opposing lane to get past a row of parked vehicles. You see a gap to go in to should oncoming traffic appear. The car behind blindly follows, and when you take the gap, he/she has nowhere to go, thereby blocking the road. Should I only go if there is a space big enough for two? What if two cars follow me?

Drivers have to think for themselves, even if we put a little extra thought in on their behalf.

Ian

[7db]

It is highly unlikely that straight lining a mild bend at 50mph in a 50mph zone whilst in 5th/6th gear will be construed as 'racing', nor straightening a small RAB at 20mph in a 30mph residential area

I have really no idea what MoP, or Plod or a magistrate will see as racing. I really don't. The story of 10 Pence Short on PH is a sobering one.

How far does that responsibility extend? To a specific distance or time period?

As far as my skills go, from my point of view. Others will draw the line elsewhere, I guess.

[TripleS]

You have to do both? My chickens have taken care of the lawn for me. No mowing required - unfortunately it's just a patch of arid scrub land now.

Only the top lawn, the chickens have turned the bottom lawn into arid scrub land! Add that to the dogs and the kids and I might as well be living in a ploughed field...

Nick

Trouble, me? I'm an alter boy compared to you guys on here!

So where's Von?

Cheers

I expect he's having a bit of fun with that old tub he keeps down at Monte Carlo....




















....if he plays his cards right, and she's in a frisky mood.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

I think I'm with GJD and (unless I'm misunderstanding him) Gareth about this.

Would a police advanced driver on a shout tone down his cornering lines and overtaking techniques, in order to avoid 'setting bad examples' to those who might not understanding the factors that enable that class of driver to do it safely? i suspect not.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gromit37]

I have really no idea what MoP, or Plod or a magistrate will see as racing. I really don't. The story of 10 Pence Short on PH is a sobering one.

Yes it was sobering, but on the other hand we only had a limited version of the story, insofar as the amount of evidence heard by the court would have been greater and more detailed. Don't get me wrong... I have no reason to disbelieve his version of events. We cannot predict how others will interpret our behaviour, no matter how careful or law abiding we are.

How far does that responsibility extend? To a specific distance or time period?

As far as my skills go, from my point of view. Others will draw the line elsewhere, I guess.

I'm not quite sure I understand this . Your skills cannot fully replace a lack of skill or judgement in others. If somebody inappropriately emulates what they have seen you doing (safely and legitimately), but a week later and 100 miles away, how can you be responsible? Which is why I asked how far the limit extends.

I'm not picking on you per se... honest!

Ian

[WhoseGeneration]

A story from 20 years ago and from a time when members of our Police Service were probably able to say more than they can today.
A talk from and disscussion with a local Police Class One to the IAM group I was then a member of.
The subject of offsiding came up.
He told us of another county's training school's experience. The Police motorcyclists were out on an exercise, using all the road, a MOP opposing saw this, panicked and drove down the middle of the road, scattering Police motorcyclists everywhere.
Henceforth the motorcyclists were instructed to only use two feet beyond the centre line.
Of course, might be different today.
Perception see, many here might appreciate and realise what's happening, recognising Police vehicles, would all?
Then, what about an unmarked car or motorcycle?
Is that someone who knows what they are doing, a total nutter, or perhaps a foreigner who has forgotten on which side we drive?

[playtent]

Then again you might get an alien who is driving a space car and panick at the sight of a earth car coming towards them!

Come on guys, your driving instructor will teach you to overtake slowing moving traffic if need be, if you then go out and do it after you pass your test and crash it's your fault. If you see a car straight lining and try to copy it then or at another time then that's their choice.

My mum's perception of my driving is too fast whilst my dad loves it, so how can you possibly adjust your driving to suit the perception of some mythical person, who in reality probably doesn't even exist?

If your doing it so close to another vehicle that it frightens them then it's your fault! We were flashed on our course a couple of times for overtakes which were totally safe. Should we have stopped overtaking because 2 drivers in a 100 found it scared them sufficiently to flash a warning?

Cheers

[WhoseGeneration]

We were flashed on our course a couple of times for overtakes which were totally safe. Should we have stopped overtaking because 2 drivers in a 100 found it scared them sufficiently to flash a warning?

Cheers

Resonates with me, way back, when I was in the IAM and an Observer, annual check with a local Police Class One, we "stretched the limits", and he told me his instructor had told him an overtake was not iffy unless the approaching driver's eyes were out like a "bulldog's bollocks".
It's about the ability to be able to judge and know the capability of one's vehichle.
Then, today, that propaganda about speed appears to have worked.
To the extent that many view any safe overtake as dangerous.

[7db]

Your skills cannot fully replace a lack of skill or judgement in others. If somebody inappropriately emulates what they have seen you doing (safely and legitimately), but a week later and 100 miles away, how can you be responsible? Which is why I asked how far the limit extends.

Gromit - you are absolutely right - I can't stop someone from doing something stupid.

However, I have sufficient observation and training that in some limited set of circumstances, I am likely to spot them putting themselves in a situation where they might have to do something stupid to get out of it. Perhaps only if some second event happens. Perhaps not.

The question then is whether I can make their drive safer without compromising the safety of mine.

For example, if I come up behind some motorist on a B-road like some fire-breathing dragon and sit mid-road, or fully off-side, with my headlamps on, looking for an overtake through some semi-open twisties, I recognise that I am likely to affect his driving. If I can't complete that overtake promptly, I am going to have to take a view on whether to maintain my position or drop off. If I notice that his driving is affected: perhaps he speeds up, or overdrives, starts clipping more dusty gutters, then I am more likely to drop off.

Similarly if I see someone trying to keep up with me on a section of road (usually some poor motorcyclist) and I can see that he is starting to be affected by my drive, I may modify my style so that it encourages him less. Or might turn-off and take a cup of tea.


I find it emotionally hard to disengage in situations where another motorist endangers me or themselves and requires me to cede legitimate progress, road position or priority to them; which is why I make a bit of a fuss here about it being a value / belief so that I can use that hook to overcome that emotion and drive as I think I would like to rather than as I might feel I want do.

Fundamentally, I believe that if I could have done something differently and prevented someone else from having an accident, then that's the sort of thing that I ought to be using my observation, planning and car control for.

HTH. Fancy a drive?

[Gromit37]

I find it emotionally hard to disengage in situations where another motorist endangers me or themselves and requires me to cede legitimate progress, road position or priority to them; which is why I make a bit of a fuss here about it being a value / belief so that I can use that hook to overcome that emotion and drive as I think I would like to rather than as I might feel I want do.

I can sympathise with you there. I know exactly what you mean, and I'm not always successful

[JPJPJP]

Whilst I am too often staggered by the things some road users do, I try hard to keep myself out of the way of situations that I can see developing, even if that means a little less progress or giving up a position for safety more readily for example.

Only yesterday I was following - well in excess of 2 seconds behind - another car in an NSL zone at about 58. I had been behind for over a mile and had made no attempt to overtake or gone any closer. I had noticed that the vehicle in front wasn't taking a position for visibility into corners.

I know that particular road well. Maybe well enough that my local knowledge gives me an advantage in terms of which gateways etc. afford useful wider / longer visibility. Anyway, I commented to OH that I was pretty sure - due to the way it was heading over the white line on a right hand bend - that the driver of the car in front had not spotted the car approaching. I slowed right down, to less than 20. Lo and behold, even though I didn't see what happened round the corner from start to finish, whatever had happened had caused the approaching vehicle to be on my side of the road, braking hard and trying to get back onto his side of the road with that look in the driver's eyes.

Had I not have slowed, a collision would have been very likely.

How one reacts to such a thing is important. If you 'let it get to you' it can have an adverse affect on your driving. As it was, I was glad to be further behind the car in front and even more glad that it turned off my route at the next junction!