Using someone else's vision

jamei · Joined: 07 May 2006 Posts: 18

This came up on my IAM test today (which I passed Very Happy

) and I had not come across it before.

I was overtaking a van on a dual carriageway as we were approaching the crest of a hill. I was in lane 2 doing avout 70mph, van in lane 1 doing 60.

As the limit point closed as we reached the summit, I 'paused' the overtake before I drew alongside the van by letting my speed drop so I could still stop in the distance i could see to be clear in my lane. Then when the road opened out I moved back up to 70mph and completed the overtake.

My examiner said I should have used the van driver's eyes: He reached the summit first and if he wasn't slowing down, I should have assumed it was ok for me to accelerate past him.

Personally I think I should have slackened off and not started the overtake until we were in a better place. But the examiners suggestion sounds a bit risky to me. For all I knew there could have been a dead horse in lane 2 that the van driver chose to ignore, or an artic across both lanes that he was too busy reading a text message to notice.

jont · Joined: 07 Jul 2006 Posts: 925 Location: Bristol

Congrats on passing your test - I hope you'll carry on developing from there Smile

I think you pick up a key point where you notice that he's not in your lane and so may not be looking for hazards that affect you.

There's a similar trick when following another car (especially a 4x4 or van) over a crest - by noticing how quickly their roofline drops away you get a feel for how severe the crest is.

However one of the things I notice in my car is because the front is rather low, I'm very susceptible to damage from road debris. A large brick or similar that most vehicles would drive straight over would likely take off my number plate (if not doing more severe damage) - and I've nearly been caught out by this when following someone (especially if in the contact position)

I think the saying that you shouldn't be putting your car on a section of road you haven't seen to be clear is a good one to keep in mind.

Like all these things, it's great having clues about what's going on around you, but when you start making assumptions based on other drivers behaviour is when you might get into difficulties.

7db · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 1810 Location: London

It's a dark art.

I think the OP has done the objectively safe thing to do, although there are circumstances when it becomes reasonable to assume things based on others cars actions, and so more speed can be carried through potential developing hazards.

As ever - it's not about deciding when to trust the vehicle in front but about when to stop trusting.

Custom24 · Joined: 15 Feb 2008 Posts: 160

I agree with you - you can't plough on regardless into a dead zone on the basis of what another driver may or may not have seen. Are you sure you interpreted what the examiner said correctly?

AnalogueAndy · Joined: 11 Mar 2008 Posts: 85

Congratulations jamei Very Happy

In the circumstances as you describe them I'd say you were right. By all means use them but don't rely on them.
Perhaps that was the point he was trying to make.

Out of interest where did you take your test?

Porker · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 533 Location: Essex

Flip it aound and work on the basis that you don't know what's over the brow, but that the vehicle ahead's behaviour gives you an extra clue as to what's might be there.

On balance, I would use the behaviour of vehicles ahead of me as an indicator of what's likely to be ahead but not as an absolute guarantee.

As ever, there are degrees of certainty depending on the exact circumstances you find yourself in.

P.

waremark · Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 838

Congratulations on passing. I would have done exactly the same as you. I would use the behaviour of previous drivers reaching the brow in the other direction only - brake lights ahead, slow even if you cannot yet see what they are braking for.

Susie · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 139 Location: Vale of Belvoir

Congratulations Jamei Very Happy

A question or three - had there been anything in Lane 2 ahead of you? Did they ease off? Did you see brake lights flicker on earlier? As mentioned, the more clues we pick up early, the better picture we can build.

Another useful 'indicator' is to watch the speed, stability and line that oncomers use coming out of a bend. If their departure speed is reasonably high, you can glean clues as to its severity.

KRs

Susie

TripleS · Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject:

James · Joined: 23 May 2006 Posts: 2308 Location: Surrey

zadocbrown · Joined: 04 Jun 2008 Posts: 147

I think without being in the car at the time we can't draw any firm conclusions as to whether we agree with the examiner in that particular case.

I've seen so many cases where people have got into a terrible stew by reading too much into second hand comments made in someone else's debrief. I think often when examiners are criticised (DSA/IAM or whatever) this is the result of a remark being taken out of context leading to the examiner being 'credited' with views which they may not actually hold.

I wonder whether the examiner really meant 'proceed because you can trust the van drivers vision.' It could alternatively be that he was less cautious in his assessment of your own vision than you were; and that the comment about using other people's vision was just a related tip.

Personally my priority in such situations is not to be 2 abreast for longer than necessary. This simple precaution will allow you to avoid most of the hazards you are likely to encounter (anything other than something blocking the whole carriageway) without needing to stop. I wouldn't take too many liberties though......

The problem at a brow is that your vision may be good for anything well above the ground, like a broken down transit; yet poor for the proverbial snake on a roller skate, or more likely a tyre carcass or stray brick. Sometimes you may need to decide what is a reasonable margin of safety at the time. This, I think, is where clues such as we're talking about can be taken into consideration.

daz6215 · Joined: 19 Dec 2007 Posts: 197 Location: Newcastle

Maybe the examiner had the benefit of India 99 overhead! Laughing

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jbsportstech · Joined: 19 Aug 2008 Posts: 344 Location: Somerset

ScoobyChris · Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 1256 Location: Andover, Hants

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner · Joined: 22 Jan 2007 Posts: 668 Location: Swindon, Wilts

I don't have any figures to hand to back this up, but I'm sure I've heard that the majority of polaccs (polcols as they should now be called Very Happy

) involve drivers with only basic response training, not Class 1's.
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