What did he do wrong?

ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

What did he do wrong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgXieZTHqq8&eurl=http://forums.seloc.org/viewthread.php?tid=182390

I'm thinking:

1. Turned in too sharp
2. Was off the throttle
3. Weight shift to the front = lighter rear end + camber = spin

Thoughts?
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ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

Also is it fair to say that the solutions could be to:

1. Turn in slower.
2. Actually look ahead at the corner.
3. Balance the car on the throttle.
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7db · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 1775 Location: London

There's all sorts going on there, but it's the crest that does him. He's late to finish the right-hander and acknowledge the left-hander. He doesn't anticipate the (empty) hazard of the joining right road, and he's fixated on maintaining progress with the car in front, rather than driving the corner. But it's the crest which is his downfall.

Classically he should have done his turning before or after the weightlessness. It's a bit like that last right-hander at the top of the hill on the hill route for anyone at Millbrook on Sat.

He could have gone early (you can see it's clear through trees -- not sure what the road paint means or prohibits thought), taken off straight and landed and accelerated on. Probably got the overtake in, too. That does require a hope that noone comes out of the joining RH exit -- although one is further away from that if cutting.

Alternatively he could have gone in deeper and taken the classic line so that his speed would have been off at the crest and grip remained. He would have had a lot more room and been straighter at the crest.

It's oversteer, so steering less would have helped -- but what looks like has happened is that he's just got scared as he flew, lifted and the classic lift-off oversteer has done him. The Elise is mid-rear engined so that might be what's done for him.

Listening, you can hear the revs are very high and die off as he crests, which will have had massive engine braking in a liz. I'm for lift-off oversteer on consideration.

Cause of problem:- balls not as big mid-corner as they were at the start of corner.

crr003 · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1230 Location: Wirral

Looks like that Armco has seen other incidents.

ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

Porker · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 517 Location: Essex

It sounds to me like he was on a trailing throttle in a middling gear (3rd?)for at least 20 yards before the crest. He then steers on the crest's apex, with the nose already loaded up and the rear light.

My verdict (based on the evidence presented) - mis-handling.

That said, I'm a little surprised the car let go given the dry road surface. Perhaps some suspension "enhancements" contributed to his downfall?

P.

ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

As far as I know, the car was standard and was fairly new (it has the 2008 style dash), so I don't think the suspension has been fettled with.

There seems to be a lot of discussion on the Lotus forums at the moment about driving Elise's and how careful you need to be in the wet. A LOT of people have crashed theirs and everyone seems to blame the light weight and tyres the car uses. However, after attending a few "Car Limits" days over at North Weald, the majority of drivers I see there are very hard on their controls - Steering is aggressive, throttle application harsh.

If the majority of people who spin their cars drive like that, then I'm not surprised they're having accidents. Even at the day at Millbrook last week, I didn't have any spins or "hairy" moments on the Outer Circuit or Alpine Circuit, even though I was going fairly quickly (but not Andy Morrison quickly mind you Smile

). However throughout all of my drives, I was aware of making sure my application was smooth, the car was balanced and that I applied less steering (still working on that one!). Even so, on the few occasions that I felt the back end wiggle a bit, it was never outside of my control.

Perhaps I'm either not driving as hard as them or maybe I'm just more sympathetic on the car? Who knows, but the Elise is one of the most tactile cars for feedback that I've ever driven!
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ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

It's also interesting if you read his blog - http://www.lotuseliseblog.com/

He states Earlier this year while driving through rural Indiana we came around a tricky corner that sent the car into a spin & into a guardrail. We weren't going excessively fast, nowhere near my or the car's limits, it really was just an odd turn. You come into it after leaving a right hand corner and going uphill, just as the hill crests you are pushing into the left hand section. As we crested the car got really light really quick, enough so to push the rear end out far enough that I couldn't recover.

Not wanting to sound like I'm preaching, but when he says that he was nowhere near his or the cars limits, I'd tend to disagree! Sad

Always blame the equipment and not the driver....
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7db · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 1775 Location: London

It feels like semantics, but "the car span" is pronounced "I span the car".

Ooh. More NLP cross-over.

I am in control. I am not good enough to stay in control. I can't get control back now that I have done something I can't control. There is no gun to my head. I chose to do this.

I choose to learn to get better so I don't make bad choices again.

ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

It's worth also adding that on his blog he mentions about getting new tyres but "waiting until they were almost completely smooth before replacing them".

Rolling Eyes

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crr003 · Joined: 11 Sep 2005 Posts: 1230 Location: Wirral

7db · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 1775 Location: London

Ah - special magic S2000 diesel.

StressedDave · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 603 Location: Cambridgeshire

waremark · Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 752

Stressed D's comments sound about right - that still leaves the question of what he did wrong.

He was off the gas in a low gear, had finished turning the wheel before the crest, and when the oversteer started responded reasonably quickly, if obviously not quickly enough.

As a Roadcraft style driver personally I would have been back on the gas before turn-in (and probably in a higher gear, not clear why he was using such a high rev range). However, I believe that both Don and Andy Walsh teach you to turn-in in an Elise off the gas, and possibly trail braking. Have I got that wrong, or would even such a minor crest (you see the surface of the road beyond it from Elise level, for heavens sake, it has to be a really minor crest!) make everything different?

ChrisR32 · Joined: 02 Mar 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Essex

Not sure if I'd turn my Elise in off throttle. I've been taught to balance the throttle through the bends and if the day at Millbrook last week was anything to go buy, apply throttle on the apex of the bend and use less steering lock.

However what I'm not sure about is how best to take a crest like this. I would have thought the last thing you'd want would be to put all of the weight on the front of the car as with a light rear end and the crest, it's a recipe for disaster!

I think the suggestions so far probably answer my question though and you either:

1. Take a straighter line through the bend and when you hit the crest, make sure that your not still steering.

2. Take it slower, balance the car on the throttle and remove lock as soon as possible.

I dunno though...I'm no expert but that would be my 2P's worth.
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